[reproduced in faithful detail, bolded emphasis is mine. Pay attention to the dates]
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 06:37:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Savinar <mattsavinar@lifeaftertheoilcrash.net>
To: sales@survivalacres.com
SA,
Check this out:
http://www.peakoilstore.com/forum/index.php/topic,8692.0.html
I didn't even link to this on the main page. Just the forum discussion was
enough to send $3,200 of business their way in one day. I earned a commission of $276 on
that. If they hadn't run out of product I suspect the number would have been much
higher.
If you could sign up at http://www.linkshare.com, I could promote the hell out
of your products.
Best,
Matt
My reply:
To: Matt Savinar <mattsavinar@lifeaftertheoilcrash.net>
Subject: Re: Linkshare
Comments: Confirmation of delivery was requested.
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:47:45 -0800
I have not been able to reach a human being at that company, or learn how the program works. I'm quite literally in the dark about it. Their website is poor, doesn't tell you anything.
If you have some comments, I'm all ears.
~Survival Acres~
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:31:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Savinar <mattsavinar@lifeaftertheoilcrash.net>
To: sales@survivalacres.com
Subject: Re: Linkshare
have you tried either http://www.cj.com or http://www.shareasale.com
I think I can generate a lot of money for you if you can figure out how to get
signed up with one of these things.
I then get this "offer" (noticed the dates) from his board administrator:
Received: from [67.72.98.86] by fwebmail04.isp.att.net;
Sat, 10 Nov 2007 01:16:03 +0000
From: taraz.pariseau@att.net
To: sales@survivalacres.com,<sales@survivalacres.com>
to whom it may concern,
my name is taraz pariseau and i have ordered from you in the past, however i am forum member at LATOC, life after the oil crash .net
matt savinar is the site owner, i wish to order from you because i like your site, however i am somewhat loyal to mr savinar and wish for you to sponsor his site since it will be in the forefront of peak oil preparations and that includes food storage plans that you have.
i can guarantee (god willing and the creek don't rise) that if you sponsor matt savinar's site and give forum members a break, i personally will be ordering about 100.00 per month in survival foods for my storage program.
i am not the only one who thinks this way either. another site sponsors him with flat rate 4.99 shipping for any order over 50.00 and give a 10% discount using a code to forum members who use that code during checkout.
they have almost sold out in the last week. i was too late reading that thread topic to get what mountain house foods i wanted. and i was prepared to spend 300.00 at the time.
the reason i am bringing this to your attention is that ( from what i remember ) you told mr savinar that your sales were too low to offer any break in price. but if you offered the break to latoc you would actually increase your sales. i am positive you would make up for decreased profit margin with volume sales. it would help you and latoc at the same time and it doesn't cost you anything. all you have to do is offer the discount for forum members only. make a minimum 50.00 purchase for lowered shipping. you could even give a 10% discount on orders over 100.00 that way people would order larger quantities.
the logistics would have to be worked out as to how to prove they are forum members, maybe a delayed payment/shipping while one of the moderators or mr savinar verify forum membership or something.
i am not sure what your margin is on your foods, but i am sure that you make at least 30% or you wouldn't be able to stay in business. also i understand that a lot of your sales are shipped directly from walton feed to your customer. no in house stocking required for that which is smart. all you have to do is the paperwork at that point and any profit seen from a situation like that is IMHO free money for you since you don't have to actually purchase and hold onto the merchandise physically.
i think the term is drop shipping i may be wrong.
at any rate, thank you for your time and i hope to be hearing back from you soon. or mr savinar will.
taraz pariseau
My reply:
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 18:39:00 -0800
Hi Taraz,
I checked into Matt's offer. In August, Matt offered a banner ad at $400 per month. This would require $4,000 in sales just to pay for his ad. I told him then that I could not afford it. It's actually 8 times higher then other websites (really).
Also, I noted that his commission on the $3200 sales is 8.6%. That's really steep. If my margin is 10%, that leaves me doing all the work for about 1.5%. Not a "deal" at all.
Worse, the commission sites he recommended are also into this "collection". They want $400 to get setup and another 20% on the commissions paid. This effectly means (using the same figures above):
3200 x 8.6% = $276 x 20% = $55.20, total commissions paid, $331.12.
That's MORE then the profits made in many cases (don't forget the other fees paid, such as credit card fees). The only people making any money would be advertisers and commissions websites and credit card companies.
My shipping is FREE for freeze dried foods, I can't go any lower then that. But as an example of what it is actually costing me, just 4 freeze dried food pouches (blueberry cheesecake) from Mountain House, cost me $13.50 to ship. My profit was less then $6.50, I effectively gave away the food.
A case of Mountain House cans costs anywhere from $13.50 - $26 to ship (high side is Canada). I'm spending $70 - $90 on most single order shipments of 6 cases or so.
What I'm trying to say is there is no profits to "share". I've long had low prices, way lower then anyone else's for over 12 years. I saw that Vitacost had a sale on that link in question, with a pretty low shipping cost. Good for them, these are probably "loss leaders" to drive future business to them. Since I know what they paid for these foods and what it takes to ship, I can guarantee that they are definitely loss leaders.
Matt is just too high, and I don't mean by a little, but by a lot. He would be (and probably is), the only person actually making any money on "deals" like this.
Our prices have consistently been lower without any special gimicks or sales or anything. This is a fact. I have a price comparism page on the site and could easily add several dozen other website to "name names" should I want to do more of this, including the ones who advertise on Matt's site. But I don't want to, I find the whole practice of having to compete for a dollar rather reprehensible in the first place.
I've long offered a free forum (now closed) and the blog and the information on the website, only to have someone try to come along and "low ball" me because another site, which offers none of these things, "matches" my price (but only if demanded by the customer, which means everyone else pays their higher price). I don't do that and won't do that because I do not believe this is ethical. I do not do price matching because I do not believe in "selling" to the customer on price alone.
Food storage and food knowledge and personal preparations should not be sold like a commodity, with people trying to get rich off of other peoples needs. Making a modest profit is fine, but raping customers is not. Everyone needs to eat, but everyone cannot afford to do so. Many can't even afford my prices, but there is little I can do about it.
There have been five price increases last year and an untold number of shipping costs increases. This will worsen, dramatically as supplies run out, drought and climate change worsen, and peak energy / peak oil take their toll. Keeping up on this is quite the challenge.
Effectively and realistically, prices will never, ever be cheaper then they are today, whether or not you buy my food or supermarket food, it's all downhill from here. I know this through and through.
Now, this is much more then you asked for. There is one other thing. I cannot defend myself on your forum (I read the link). This has never, ever worked, because someone takes exception to something and a shitstorm follows. So I stay away, despite what I've read (Matt was very wrong to publically state that I was broke, it's not even remotely true). I can't afford his rates, period.
Regarding your suggestion. On a $50 order, a 10% discount is probably above the actual profit margins. This is a very tiny order in my experience and I'm about to stop taking them, because I'm losing money often. I'm being killed on shipping costs for the most part.
Margins vary on each product and I'm not going to list them all here, but due to shipping, credit card fees, long distance phone calls, website fees (I do all my own programming) and overhead fees, orders under $100 either all losses or very close to a loss. They're losses because my prices are already quite low.
Should I charge full retail, I could consider a 10% discount. But discounting what's already discounted and losing even more money makes no sense as I'm sure you understand.
Let me show you exactly how this worked out for your own personal order through me:
You paid $119.27 on January 9th, 2007. My cost was $106.99 plus credit card fees of $3.58. Total actual cost to me was $110.57.
Not including any other expenses such as phone calls or website or my time or anything else, this is a profit of $8.70.
Now try to squeeze 10% out of that for a discount. Let's pretend:
$119.27 * .10 = $11.93 Oops, we've already got a problem, it's already more then the profits that will be realized.
See my point?
These small orders are not really profitable at all. The only way to make money at my prices is high volume and bigger orders. This is why I concentrate on low prices, to get a bigger order and a repeat customer.
I could do this all day long, not mentioned yet is the fact that I never, ever charge more for shipping on orders. If you've paid too little (which often happens), I eat the loss. Rainy Day foods has a shipping charge as you know, if I'm short because they charge me more then I've charged you, I eat it everytime. Customers don't even know, because I never tell them.
I hope you're the type of person that can hear the truth, because I'm really going to lay it on the line here.
Matt could advertise me if he wanted to. But he wants a lot of money to do so. Frankly, I disagree with this practice. I've advertised him for a long time for free, he's been linked on my blog since it's inception. Nobody pays me one cent for advertising and never has, nor the articles I've written (over 1,000 now) or the 3,000 plus articles and information found on the old forum.
If Matt wanted to do the right thing, he'd advertise companies that are ethical, fair and honest with respectable pricing. For free.
I'm dead serious. Trying to make a buck off of the needs of others, but not providing any real service yourself in exchange is unethical. It costs almost nothing to put up a link or a banner or make mention to someone's great deal or good product or recommended service. But making a marketing scheme out of this is very strange to me.
Here's my take on this: those involved in preparing others through products, services or books for the coming collapse should abandon the paradigms of trying to make money from each other. We are all part of the same "wheel", turning and churning away, trying to get other people (like yourself) to prepare. We should be advertising each other for free. There are plenty of ways to make money from the products we do sell and service (or write).
I seek to abandon the present paradigm of capitalistic exploitation (read my blog) because I believe it's unethical, irresponsible and destructive in the long run.
You are mistaken however about what I do. I inventory thousands of dollars in food here so that I can ship out quickly. This is limited to the Mountain House line. There is no such thing as "free money", I work 7 days a week, 12 - 16 hours a day. I'd do better if I just had a regular "job", but I'm not the kind of person that can do that. I'll remain self-employed the rest of my life.
I think your assumptions and that of Matt's are because you're not actually in this business and don't really realize what it takes in terms of time, effort, money and overhead. Those who are charging large markups can probably afford much more, but as you probably now understand, even if I did that, I'd find it unethical to pay out large advertising fees anyway.
I'll leave it up to you to do what you want with this reply. I know what I would do. The truth is, Matt should be sponsoring me, as a fellow crash prepper, providing a huge service at significant effort and expense. And I wouldn't charge him a thing.
I will respectfully decline your offer, because it's not even remotely realistic for my company.
Survival Acres - Storable Food & Supplies
Website: http://survivalacres.com
Blog: http://survivalacres.com/wordpress
(800) 681-1057
An email to Matt follows. Taraz had posted some stuff on the LATOC board, which I asked to be removed, since I considered it unethical:
To: mattsavinar@lifeaftertheoilcrash.net
Subject: Re: Order Confirmation & commentary
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:44:59 -0800
Matt,
Your vitamins shipped out yesterday via US Mail. You should have these in a few days, but there isn't any tracking number. Let me know if there are any problems.
I would appreciate it if you would remove Taraz's comments about my company and business, they do not belong on a public forum.
http://www.peakoilstore.com/forum/index.php/topic,8692.45.html
I have replied privately to Taraz yesterday, but there has been no reply. I far as I am concerned, her public comments are undoubtedly doing more harm then good.
Survival Acres - Storable Food & Supplies
Website: http://survivalacres.com
Blog: http://survivalacres.com/wordpress
(800) 681-1057
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:53:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Savinar <mattsavinar@lifeaftertheoilcrash.net>
To: sales@survivalacres.com
Subject: Re: Order Confirmation & commentary
Cool, thanks.
Just removed the comment
Best,
Matt
[Matt places a small order]
Hi Matt,
Thank you for your order. I'll have this combined with the other products and they should both ship out at the same time.
Your order has been processed for fulfillment,
our current ship times are listed -- http://survivalacres.com/shiptimes.htm
Our quality care program is found here -- http://survivalacres.com/qualityprogram.htm
Please give us a call or email if you have any questions!
Survival Acres - Storable Food & Supplies
Website: http://survivalacres.com
Blog: http://survivalacres.com/wordpress
(800) 681-1057
>
> Merchant: Survival Acres - Jade Enterprises
>
> Order ID: xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Order Placed: Saturday Nov 10, 2007 08:35:44 PM PDT
> Amount of Transaction: 227.44
> Payment Type: xxxx
> CustID: xxxxxxxx
>
> BILL TO
> --------
> Matthew Savinar
[layd-t (taraz) then puts up some shitty comments on my blog, they were removed rather quickly, but she persisted, shown below)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:04:27 -0600
To: sales@survivalacres.com
Subject: [Survival Acres Blog] Comment: "Minimum Orders, Now $100"
New comment on your post #1008 "Minimum Orders, Now $100"
Author : lady-t
Comment:
the "fiasco" was concerning my opinions and requests. none of which was
"damaging" to you. if anything it made people pay attention.
you can ban me if you like, it's your site, but, there was NO rumormongering
going on.
you know i was just fixing to order more stuff from your site, but since you
have had such a big hissy fit over my comments at www.latoc.net i will take my
business to the internet grocer instead.
have a nice life
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:06:45 -0600
Message-Id: <200711121606.lACG6jT8024118@web2.u2-web.com>
To: sales@survivalacres.com
Subject: [Survival Acres Blog] Comment: "Minimum Orders, Now $100"
New comment on your post #1008 "Minimum Orders, Now $100"
Author : lady-t
Comment:
oh one other thing, if you get so upset over a few lines on an internet forum
what are you going to react like when the shit really does hit the fan ?
you need to get a thicker skin and quit acting like a big baby IMHO
you will probably delete this but for a little while others will be able to read
it before you do.
censorship at it's finest probably
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:00:38 -0600
Message-Id: <200711121700.lACH0crH027536@web2.u2-web.com>
To: sales@survivalacres.com
Subject: [Survival Acres Blog] Comment: "Minimum Orders, Now $100"
From: "mattsavinar" <wordpress@survivalacres.com>
New comment on your post #1008 "Minimum Orders, Now $100"
Author : mattsavinar (IP: 66.92.0.48 , dsl092-000-048.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
E-mail : mattsavinar@lifeaftertheoilcrash.net
Comment:
SA,
I tried sending this to sales@survivalacres.com but it got returned to me as
undeliverable.So I'm posting it here. I'd prefer it not be published:
SA,
Lady-T (Taraz) just pmed me at the LATOC forum that she posted something nasty
at your blog. I wrote back to her:
"Problem is that is only going to make a mountain out of a molehile. He's going
to assume you're doing it as my representative or something."
I deleted the entire "fiasco" thread over the weekend. You, of course, can do
with her comments what you wish although I think deleting them or simply
not-approving them to go up would probably be best. I don't know what exactly
she posted but if it's nasty like she says it is that is her acting entirely on
her own and not in any way coming from me.
To: taraz.pariseau@att.net, mattsavinar@lifeaftertheoilcrash.net
Subject: (Fwd) [Survival Acres Blog] Comment: "Minimum Orders, Now $100
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:05:12 -0800
[Matt - this copy is being sent to you because your admin has chosen to attack my blog, see below]
Taraz,
You are lacking in respect and decency. The reason I removed your comments from my blog is pretty simple. Board disagreements are unhelpful to all.
But I do need to share with you the damage you have caused. I had asked Matt to remove your comments on his board by you because they were inaccurate (grossly so).
Your knowledge of the food business is appalling. My agreement with Walton's isn't anybody else's business nor should it be publically aired or speculated on. It's damaging to let other people "think" that volume is as high as those numbers you published (which isn't even remotely true). I could close this business for a year and resume my distrubutership with Walton's because I have long offered excellent service. I'm good for them, they are good for me, our business agreement is simply nobody's business, especially to be speculated about online.
Since this thread was posted on LATOC, my sales have dropped precipitously through the floor. Friday, 12 sales. Saturday 2 sales (including one from Matt). Sunday, zero. Monday, zero.
You don't think you did any damage? I could probably file a lawsuit against you for what you've done. But I don't expect to do that, it's not my way.
I wrote to you privately, in respect to your misguided "request" that I support LATOC. Your implication was that I deserved to do so for some unknown reason to me.
You rejected my heartfelt and honest reply apparently (attached for your benefit Matt, I do not know if you have seen this), and now you have publically attempted to disparage my business on my own blog with two comments (attached). This is reprehensible behavior. Any further attacks against me and my business will be dealt with legally. I don't like making such statements, but frankly, you've left me little choice. I've already copied the threads on LATOC in question, I did that two days ago.
You need to grow up. You know absolutely nothing about this business or what it takes to run it, or the sacrifices made by myself and my family or the incredible hardships we have suffered. Nor do you know what kind of damage you cause because you got your nose out of joint for some unknown and still unspecified reason.
I have told you the TRUTH, yet you yet continue to disregard this with disdain and contempt. Why? Why are you upset? Why do you choose to take your disagreement into a public forum? How much more damage are you going to cause?
Now, let me deal with your comments you publically posted on my blog. Your "opinions and requests" were grossly inaccurate. The rumormongering was you, all you - and your commentary about distrubutership and how much profits are being made. Many of my products have a 7% margin, you said 30% and "easy money". You also publically stated that $20,000 a month is sales was required to maintain distributership (not true).
It is this type of disinformation that can be and has been damaging. I asked Matt to remove that post after I became aware of it, he did so immediately.
Matt - you would do me a favor (should you choose to) and tell Taraz how much money you are making off your site. You've told me, I still have those emails and it's at least 5 times what I make. I have not been able to afford your advertising for a reason, and it's not a lack of effort on my part. It's a lack of profit margins.
Now, returning to your commentary posted on my blog. My "thick skin" isn't in question. Your behavior is. You are acting like a child. You definitely do not deserve to be a board administrator because you demonstrate a lack of judgement and integrity. Please do not post on my blog again, I cannot trust you to behave yourself.
My "censorship" in removing your comments is necessary. Your misguided dispute with me (for some really bizarre reason only known to you) does not belong on a public forum. I gave you every opportunity to reply to me privately. You could have even called me, but chose not to do so.
You're "fixing to order more stuff" was somewhat meaningless as I explained. I already pointed out to you that $100 orders were almost profitless. My "big hissy fit" as you wrongly label it was private and contained, unlike yours which was public on LATOC and public on my own blog. I didn't revealed the source or nature of the problems I was having, but you certainly tried to. Why?
What's wrong with you Taraz? I'm serious. You take great offense to my honests replies and choose to publically attack someone you don't even know, have never had a problem with and has done his utmost to keep you happy. I do not understand.
Stop disparaging my business. It's unethical and irresponsible as hell. I've done nothing at all to you, absolutely nothing. But you are taking vengeance against me for some bizarre reason.
I didn't invite this attack, nor the "invitation" to support LATOC or anything else. This is something you and Matt (apparently) dreamed up entirely on your own. You should have contacted me privately. Why didn't you?
I think that this behavior by you is extremely irresponsible. Unfortunately, I doubt very much that I'm going to get through to you and your understanding, but it's not from a lack of effort. I've tried very hard to lay it on the line, but you simply refuse to accept the truth. Only you know why, because I sure as hell don't.
Matt - don't know if there is anything at all that you can do. I see that the entire LATOC thread is already removed. No matter.
I think you should be advertising me Matt - for free (see my comments below to Taraz if you've not seen them yet, I sent these two days ago). Perhaps you don't agree, but I'll still be leaving the LATOC link up on my blog.
Survival Acres - Storable Food & Supplies
Website: http://survivalacres.com
Blog: http://survivalacres.com/wordpress
(800) 681-1057
To: "mattsavinar@lifeaftertheoilcrash.net" <mattsavinar@lifeaftertheoilcrash.net>
Subject: Re: [Survival Acres Blog] Comment: "Minimum Orders, Now $100"
Comments: Confirmation of delivery was requested.
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:17:41 -0800
Hi Matt,
Thanks. I deleted your comments off the thread (this did get publically posted). I am still having severe Internet problems here, which have been ongoing for months now. Not sure if this is related to the email being rejected or not.
I honestly do not know what the hell is going on with Taraz. I find this whole episode bizarre and distasteful. Disagreements are never edifying to anybody, especially when dragged out in a public forum.
Since Taraz did tell you about her own comments -- she's probably trying to defend you, I don't know.
I did not see this before I sent that long email. No matter, you "have it all". I just want this to go away, the damage has been done. I worked my ass off on trying to make a go of this business, I don't need this kind of negative publicity.
Survival Acres - Storable Food & Supplies
Website: http://survivalacres.com
Blog: http://survivalacres.com/wordpress
(800) 681-1057